Humidity Misconceptions - Am I Wrong?

Started by Koop, 08/28/2018 04:56 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Koop

As a less experienced cigar enthusiast than many on this forum, I've been reading a lot about cigars and proper storage. I found a few fallacies regarding proper humidification out there. In an article I read by a so-called expert, he advises putting the humidifier high in the humidor since the humid air is heavy and will sink. This is not true. Humid air is not heavy, it's less dense than dry air. Water vapor rises in dry air - that's why clouds are high in the sky.

I find the 70/70 rule interesting and also have read variations on the RH different people prefer. I think if we use grains of water per pound of dry air, it's easier to understand the relationship of temperature and relative humidity. For example, 70% relative humidity at 70 degrees fahrenheit equals 78 grains of water per pound of dry air. Here's the thing, at 80 degrees fahrenheit 50% relative humidity equals the same 78 grains of water per pound of dry air. Interestingly, at 60 degrees fahrenheit we cannot attain 78 grains of water per pound of dry air - 90% RH is only 70 grains, any higher and it would liquify and puddle.

In my case, my wife and I are full-time travelers. We live full time in our 40 foot motorhome and I tow a 8.5x20 foot cargo trailer that's my rolling garage and man cave. This makes space a premium and I cannot always control the temperature as much as I would like in my tupperdor. But when I see the RH fluctuate in the humidor inside the tupperdor, I can relate it to the temperature changes. If I can maintain somewhere near the 78 grains of water, I figure I'm good even if the humidity seems abnormally low when the temperature is rising. I know this isn't the ideal situation, but it is what it is.

Thoughts?

Kid Montana

#1
Your point about moisture density grades vs temperature is a good one, but a red herring.  Buy appropriate amounts of 65 or 69% RH Boveda packs and keep your cigars below 75 degrees Fahrenheit.  That is literally all there is to humidification for containers smaller than a 70 qt cooler.  Larger cabinet humidors or room-humidors should have circulation, so again, placement shouldn't matter.


I'd rather have a cigar...

Kid Montana

#2
As far as psychroometry, here are some handy references.  
https://www.colorado.edu/learncheme/MEB/ReadingPsychrometricChart.html
http://web.uconn.edu/poultry/NE-127/NewFiles/Psychrometric.html

I don't think anyone has done a formal study of how cigars absorb moisture based on temperature.  Imagine the following experiment:

4 concurrent experiments

bundles of 20 cigars per experiment

Bundle 1 maintained at 50 degrees fahrenheit at 70% RH
Bundle 2 maintained at 60 degrees fahrenheit at 70% RH
Bundle 3 maintained at 70 degrees fahrenheit at 70% RH
Bundle 4 maintained at 80 degrees fahrenheit at 70% RH

Assuming all bundles were stored in identical conditions prior to the experiment.

Measure each bundle's weight before the experiment and again at 7 day intervals.  Also collect data on firmness, color, mold presence etc.  End the experiment at 6 months and report your findings.


I'd rather have a cigar...

Koop

#3
I can see now that I didn't state my thoughts clearly. My point was that ambient temperature can affect the RH and temperature change can happen more rapidly than my humidifier can react to the change. So, if ambient temperature rises to 80 degrees, my humidifier needs to add sufficient grains of water to maintain the humidity, but it will do so at a slower rate than the temperature change occurred. So, changes in RH on my hygrometer are to be expected. Likewise, if the temperature drops it will occur faster than my humidifier can reabsorb grains of water.

In my situation, I cannot control the temperature as well as I would like. So my solution was to place my 125 count humidor inside a 50 quart cooler in an attempt to slow rate of the change in temperature. Does this make sense?

Kid Montana

#4
QuoteKoop - 8/28/2018  7:59 PM

I can see now that I didn't state my thoughts clearly. My point was that ambient temperature can affect the RH and temperature change can happen more rapidly than my humidifier can react to the change. So, if ambient temperature rises to 80 degrees, my humidifier needs to add sufficient grains of water to maintain the humidity, but it will do so at a slower rate than the temperature change occurred. So, changes in RH on my hygrometer are to be expected. Likewise, if the temperature drops it will occur faster than my humidifier can reabsorb grains of water.

In my situation, I cannot control the temperature as well as I would like. So my solution was to place my 125 count humidor inside a 50 quart cooler in an attempt to slow rate of the change in temperature. Does this make sense?

Solid solution.  I would shoot low on humidity, 60-65% in your case.  If you are experiencing large temperature swings, your biggest concern will be proper humidification at a higher temperature causing a mold bloom when temperatures drop, and the humidity climbs to 80%+.  Per the psychometric chart, 70% RH at 80 degrees will cause saturation levels of humidity when temperatures drop to below 70 degrees.  60% RH at 80 degrees translates to around 77% RH at 70 degrees, which is high, but within tolerances.


I'd rather have a cigar...

DonM

QuoteKoop - 8/29/2018  1:59 AM


In my situation, I cannot control the temperature as well as I would like. So my solution was to place my 125 count humidor inside a 50 quart cooler in an attempt to slow rate of the change in temperature. Does this make sense?

Someone on CG was putting ice in their cooler to keep the temps down.  I would imagine a freezer pack of some sort would work.  If I were in your scenario, I think the cigars would go in a tupperdor rather than a wooden humidor, as those temp and RH swings would be absorbed in the wood.  I would try to keep the temps down below 75 degrees if possible.  If the humidor/cooler is riding in the trailer, you could always put a remote hygrometer in the cooler like the boveda sensor maybe? so you know how well your cigars are enjoying the ride

"The Curmudgeon"













Beegerply

Wow reading that was like setting in a science class lol.   :biggrin:
Byron

Guru of small balls and big sticks
--------------------------------------------------

"If there are no cigars in heaven I shall not go" Mark Twain

Cigary

#7

 

QuoteDonM - 8/29/2018  4:55 AM  
QuoteKoop - 8/29/2018  1:59 AM   In my situation, I cannot control the temperature as well as I would like. So my solution was to place my 125 count humidor inside a 50 quart cooler in an attempt to slow rate of the change in temperature. Does this make sense?

Someone on CG was putting ice in their cooler to keep the temps down.  I would imagine a freezer pack of some sort would work.  If I were in your scenario, I think the cigars would go in a tupperdor rather than a wooden humidor, as those temp and RH swings would be absorbed in the wood.  I would try to keep the temps down below 75 degrees if possible.  If the humidor/cooler is riding in the trailer, you could always put a remote hygrometer in the cooler like the boveda sensor maybe? so you know how well your cigars are enjoying the ride

 I posted this quite some time back as to reducing temps in situations where it became intolerable in controlling changing temps.  Igloos/Cooleradors are great for managing temps and I've been doing this for nearly a decade.  I use the Blue Ice blocks which I put inside a thick freezer bag ( double bagged to keep away any condensation ) and use duct tape to keep the block under the lid. Doing it this way keeps a stable temperature environment and with a 48 qt. cooler it's just large enough to store quite a few cigars but not so many that you can't keep inventory. I put in about a pound of kitty litter on one side to regulate RH which is easy to train....I also put the KL inside a 1 pound freezer bag and zip it 3/4 to allow the KL to work like it's supposed to.  I use a 1 qt. freezer bag to store my cigars in...each bag can hold about 10 cigars and I stand them upright like one would do a file and then I label each bag with what is inside. I don't zip the bag shut as I just use the bag to store inventory and it's easy to slide in or out and this has worked so well for the last 10 years I can even store my coolerador in the garage in the summer with no issues.  I keep an Accurite Temp/Humidor hygro to ensure that when I check every other week I know the numbers and it keeps things at 65% RH/ 70 degrees F....cant ask for better. I've entertained the idea of using a sensor but that's just more money to spend and it's not needed since this has worked so well with just a $9 Accurite ....it's a proven way for me...but I still like the sensor if not just to play with and stare at it when I'm bored.


Koop



   
Privacy Policy     Terms of Service
Copyright © 2007-2024 Cigar Geeks, Inc. All rights reserved.