More than 60 years of cigars and how I see the future

Started by sweatsock, 12/17/2019 05:36 PM

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sweatsock

My father smoked machine made cigars with Cuban tobacco until the embargo and continued to smoke the same brands. I have a fondness for the aroma from when I was a child. I started smoking cigars in 1966, my third year in college. Cigarette smoking was everywhere. Class rooms were full of smoke. I think I started smoking cigars as a protest. I never smoked cigarettes or inhaled. Students were liberal and never complained about cigar smoking. I was playing a lot of tournament bridge and there was a lot of cigarette smoking. Cigarette smokers hate cigars and for a long time I had to switch to a pipe. I didn't know there was a cigar boom.

When it became common knowledge  that smoking cigarettes was unhealthy restrictions were added on where a person could smoke and cigarette taxes kept on increasing. Cigars not nearly as much. I didn't mind the restrictions because I had been socially restricted from smoking cigars for a long time and wouldn't have to deal with as much second hand smoke.

Today is probably the best time ever to buy cigars. Generally better quality, more choices and discounts. Where a person can smoke is being continuously restricted. Where I live smoking is not allowed almost nowhere including a lot of residences.

The city of Beverly Hills banned all tobacco sales with a huge exception of smoking lounges and almost all the places that sold cigars were lounges except for convenience stores. Lounges are the future of B&Ms. Cigar smoking at one time was considered elitist and those days are returning for a lot of the country. I don't see a lot of tax increases and online sales bans.  The revenue from cigar taxes is miniscule compared with cigarettes and the cost to the health care system from cigarette smoking is a big deal. I can smoke on my porch without impacting anyone and expect to keep buying online and smoking at home.

Brlesq

Interesting observations about your life and how cigar smoking has impacted it.  Unfortunately, I believe that there will be more taxes and restrictions/bans on online sales.  These are primarily controlled by the States who are all hungry for more tax revenue, or trying to keep sales at a local level (and not through the mail), and every year we see the tightening of the noose. At the Fed level, its the FDA/Congress that could hurt the cigar industry (and your ability to buy the vast selection you see today) if they fail to carve out exceptions for our hobby from the broad-sweeping regulations on tobacco (and no doubt vaping in the near future).  

I hope that I am wrong, and that you are right.  :-)


Bruce
Chief Enabler 
Guru of Decorum & Sarcasm


Hey! How come Habana is written on here with a Sharpie ?!?

A day without whiskey is like . . . just kidding, I have no idea!


sweatsock

It was around the time that Costco stopped selling tobacco products and my wife smoked Marlboro Lights. I started buying Marlboro Lights from Russia and Switzerland at about $2 a pack. Good products and a big savings; then there was a huge crackdown by customs and those sources dried up. Imported cigarettes resulted in a huge amount of lost tax revenue.  Cigarettes are smuggled into New York City in large amounts to avoid the high taxes. Tax revenue from cigars would be small and the main interest now with the internet is collecting sales tax. California and other states have high cigar taxes but there has been little interest in collecting it from online sales. Everyone was concerned about the impact of SCHIP. I am finding better deals since it was passed. Political upheaval in Nicaragua has had a much greater impact with resulting price reductions. I smoke around 1,000 cigars a year and buy the same. I have a two year supply and don't plan on increasing it until the announcement of doomsday. Worst case, I smoke what I have and quit.

sweatsock

Prior to this year, very few states were collecting sales tax on internet sales. That was leaving a lot of money on the table. Collecting tobacco tax by states has not been a priority. It isn't a lot of money compared with other sales. B&M have pushed for the laws to level the playing field on sales. I don't think tobacco B&M have much political clout.  The real problem would be the prohibiting the shipping of cigars between states.  This law is in place for cigarettes because it represents a lot of revenue. Pipe and cigar tobacco tax revenue is small potatoes.

I have no idea about the progress of the new FDA rules.  I'm not seeing a lot of impact on the vendors. I don't by Cuban cigars and at one point I was concerned about ordering because of customs enforcement. I would have no worries now because customs enforcement is much laxer even though the political climate regarding Cuba hs got worse. I don't think there is any national interest regarding cigars other than the FDA.

amigodecigars

Steve, did you see the message that I sent to your 'inbox' about the D8's and Cuban fillers from the same factory?
"There are plenty of good five-cent cigars in the country. The trouble is they cost a quarter. What this country needs is a good five-cent nickel."  Franklin Pierce Adams

sweatsock

I am new to this site and didn't notice the message. I checked and responded. Thanks.

DonM

I foresee Bruces vision of cigars in the future coming.  When the Feds go after vaping (it is coming), they will also go after internet sales/taxing of tobacco as it is also a part of the vape business as well.  We all know what the Feds can do to screw up a good thing.  Tax hungry states want a piece of the pie they are missing out on as stated.  If this theory becomes fact, it will shake up the entire US cigar industry.


"The Curmudgeon"













amigodecigars

Quotesweatsock - 12/18/2019  6:46 PM  I am new to this site and didn't notice the message. I checked and responded. Thanks.
check your inbox mail again, I replied to your message.

 

"There are plenty of good five-cent cigars in the country. The trouble is they cost a quarter. What this country needs is a good five-cent nickel."  Franklin Pierce Adams

Cfickter

Pennsylvania is a state that does worry about collecting sales tax on internet sold cigars.  It is the home to two of the largest internet sellers, CI and Famous along with their co-brands like cigars.com.  PA is also the home to Flatbed Cigars, Holts, Stogie Bird, and Leaf & Bean along with dozens of other on   line retailers.  More cigars are shipped out of PA than any other state.

Pennsylvania also does not have a cigar tax.  It is estimated that a cigar tax could generate $28 million.  But that would be a small drop in the bucket if you would consider the lost revenue to the state from jobs leaving the state, B&M closing, etc...

As for the Fed, Bruce is right, there will always be a threat so long as they see an opportunity to generate revenue, especially thru a "sin tax".  Once established at any level it will quickly escalate. For now there are several key Senators and Representatives that seem determined to block any tax on premium hand rolled cigars.
Guru Master of the Minions

Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms should be a convenience store, not a department of our government!

Gunga galunga ... gunga, gunga-lagunga." - Carl Spackler

Education is important, cigars are importanter!

I like long walks, especially when they're taken by people who annoy me





sweatsock

QuoteDonM - 12/19/2019  7:01 AM

I foresee Bruces vision of cigars in the future coming.  When the Feds go after vaping (it is coming), they will also go after internet sales/taxing of tobacco as it is also a part of the vape business as well.  We all know what the Feds can do to screw up a good thing.  Tax hungry states want a piece of the pie they are missing out on as stated.  If this theory becomes fact, it will shake up the entire US cigar industry.


Age to buy tobacco products raised to 21 which is a better solution for young tobacco/vape users than taxes.

CW Piperman

Quotesweatsock - 12/17/2019  6:36 PM

I don't see a lot of tax increases and online sales bans.  The revenue from cigar taxes is miniscule compared with cigarettes and the cost to the health care system from cigarette smoking is a big deal. I can smoke on my porch without impacting anyone and expect to keep buying online and smoking at home.

Unfortunately, I don't share this optimism. The reason for my dismay is 2 fold. One, I live in a state that has made it ILLEGAL to purchase any tobacco product online, or out of state. Period. Two, the following is making it's way through congress:

H.R.2339 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): Reversing the Youth Tobacco Epidemic Act of 2019 - https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/2339

TL;DR

(c) Prohibition against remote retail sales.—Paragraph (4) of section 906(d) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (21 U.S.C. 387f(d)) is amended to read as follows:

“(4) PROHIBITION AGAINST REMOTE RETAIL SALES.—Not later than 2 years after the date of enactment of the Reversing the Youth Tobacco Epidemic Act of 2019, the Secretary shall promulgate a final regulation under paragraph (1) prohibiting the retail sale of all tobacco products, including electronic nicotine delivery systems and electronic nicotine delivery system accessories, other than retail sales through a direct, face-to-face exchange between a retailer and a consumer.”.

 It's coming, folks. I have a well-stocked B&M in my town, but they only stock a fraction of what's available in cigars and pipe tobacco online. Except for the lifeline of cigar passes (not purchasing, so legal), I am relegated to the inventory that my B&M determines. If the above bill passes, that will be true for us all. Truly disheartening. Here's hoping that this doesn't come to pass, but most think that even if this doesn't pass, it's inevitable. Note that it is "remote sales" that are banned. This means online, mail-order, catalog, or purchase from friends.

 

CW

"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" --J.R.R. Tolkein, #Bilbo #LOTR #TFOTR

Humidor: http://www.cigargeeks.com/index.php?action=humidors;area=public;member=CW+Piperman

sweatsock

QuoteCW Piperman - 1/1/2020  5:02 PM

Quotesweatsock - 12/17/2019  6:36 PM

I don't see a lot of tax increases and online sales bans.  The revenue from cigar taxes is miniscule compared with cigarettes and the cost to the health care system from cigarette smoking is a big deal. I can smoke on my porch without impacting anyone and expect to keep buying online and smoking at home.

Unfortunately, I don't share this optimism. The reason for my dismay is 2 fold. One, I live in a state that has made it ILLEGAL to purchase any tobacco product online, or out of state. Period. Two, the following is making it's way through congress:

H.R.2339 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): Reversing the Youth Tobacco Epidemic Act of 2019 - https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/2339

TL;DR

(c) Prohibition against remote retail sales.—Paragraph (4) of section 906(d) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (21 U.S.C. 387f(d)) is amended to read as follows:

"(4) PROHIBITION AGAINST REMOTE RETAIL SALES.—Not later than 2 years after the date of enactment of the Reversing the Youth Tobacco Epidemic Act of 2019, the Secretary shall promulgate a final regulation under paragraph (1) prohibiting the retail sale of all tobacco products, including electronic nicotine delivery systems and electronic nicotine delivery system accessories, other than retail sales through a direct, face-to-face exchange between a retailer and a consumer.".

 It's coming, folks. I have a well-stocked B&M in my town, but they only stock a fraction of what's available in cigars and pipe tobacco online. Except for the lifeline of cigar passes (not purchasing, so legal), I am relegated to the inventory that my B&M determines. If the above bill passes, that will be true for us all. Truly disheartening. Here's hoping that this doesn't come to pass, but most think that even if this doesn't pass, it's inevitable. Note that it is "remote sales" that are banned. This means online, mail-order, catalog, or purchase from friends.

 

CW

What states currently have restrictions on buying cigars online or out of state? Anti tobacco bills are initiated all the time. The final version of the bill would need to specifically include cigars. Most support will be for restrictions on vaping and cigarettes. State level restrictions to be effective will require additional tobacco restrictions on carriers including the USPS to preclude mules.
Tobacco bills need to balance health issues against tobacco related revenue and jobs. Any changes will not happen overnight and there would be a massive dump of tobacco products prior to implementation. Mailing cigarettes is illegal. When the policy was introduced, why weren't cigars included.

Brlesq

Quotesweatsock - 1/5/2020  2:58 PM

QuoteCW Piperman - 1/1/2020  5:02 PM

Quotesweatsock - 12/17/2019  6:36 PM

I don't see a lot of tax increases and online sales bans.  The revenue from cigar taxes is miniscule compared with cigarettes and the cost to the health care system from cigarette smoking is a big deal. I can smoke on my porch without impacting anyone and expect to keep buying online and smoking at home.

Unfortunately, I don't share this optimism. The reason for my dismay is 2 fold. One, I live in a state that has made it ILLEGAL to purchase any tobacco product online, or out of state. Period. Two, the following is making it's way through congress:

H.R.2339 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): Reversing the Youth Tobacco Epidemic Act of 2019 - https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/2339

TL;DR

(c) Prohibition against remote retail sales.—Paragraph (4) of section 906(d) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (21 U.S.C. 387f(d)) is amended to read as follows:

"(4) PROHIBITION AGAINST REMOTE RETAIL SALES.—Not later than 2 years after the date of enactment of the Reversing the Youth Tobacco Epidemic Act of 2019, the Secretary shall promulgate a final regulation under paragraph (1) prohibiting the retail sale of all tobacco products, including electronic nicotine delivery systems and electronic nicotine delivery system accessories, other than retail sales through a direct, face-to-face exchange between a retailer and a consumer.".

 It's coming, folks. I have a well-stocked B&M in my town, but they only stock a fraction of what's available in cigars and pipe tobacco online. Except for the lifeline of cigar passes (not purchasing, so legal), I am relegated to the inventory that my B&M determines. If the above bill passes, that will be true for us all. Truly disheartening. Here's hoping that this doesn't come to pass, but most think that even if this doesn't pass, it's inevitable. Note that it is "remote sales" that are banned. This means online, mail-order, catalog, or purchase from friends.

 

CW

What states currently have restrictions on buying cigars online or out of state? Anti tobacco bills are initiated all the time. The final version of the bill would need to specifically include cigars. Most support will be for restrictions on vaping and cigarettes. State level restrictions to be effective will require additional tobacco restrictions on carriers including the USPS to preclude mules.
Tobacco bills need to balance health issues against tobacco related revenue and jobs. Any changes will not happen overnight and there would be a massive dump of tobacco products prior to implementation. Mailing cigarettes is illegal. When the policy was introduced, why weren't cigars included.

Clearly Michigan is one such state because CW Piperman just told that he can't buy them online there.  I'll give you Utah as another one.  Look them up. The rest of the states you can research for yourself, but my guess is that most people only care if it is THEIR state that is prohibiting online purchases.
Bruce
Chief Enabler 
Guru of Decorum & Sarcasm


Hey! How come Habana is written on here with a Sharpie ?!?

A day without whiskey is like . . . just kidding, I have no idea!


sweatsock

I live in CA and buying at a B&M is out of the question because of a high tax on cigars. If I can't buy online, I'll quit smoking cigars. Sales tax on  online cigar purchases  was instituted  recently in my state. I didn't mind because I do a lot of online purchases and sales tax was being charged on most of them. Assuming my state  decided to start collecting tobacco taxes on online purchases, there would be BOTL of non  taxed states that would act as mules and make the purchase and forward the orders. The additional cost would be the reshipping. This was already being done by smokers who lived in states that had a high sales tax on online cigar purchases. I wasn't questioning the accuracy of CW piperman's  information only curious. I don't know why CA  hasn't pursued  collecting tobacco tax on online purchases considering it would represent a lot more revenue than Utah. Vaping is being identified as a serious health risk particularly among young people. Smokeless tobacco and cigarette smoking were identified as health risks and can't be mailed. Cigarettes should be banned but instead are just heavily taxed which has worked out well for the Mafia. The effort on stopping the importation of Cuban cigars has been greatly diminished. Laws to restrict alcohol purchases in states that had restrictions have been reduced.  About 50 years ago, I was stopped by a trooper for speeding at night in North Carolina and I had a pleasant conversation with the officer. He was looking for drunk drivers and bemoaned the laws that prohibited liquor by the drink  because it led to people buying a bottle and over consuming. Those laws have changed.

CW Piperman

"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" --J.R.R. Tolkein, #Bilbo #LOTR #TFOTR

Humidor: http://www.cigargeeks.com/index.php?action=humidors;area=public;member=CW+Piperman

tuck0411

QuoteCW Piperman - 1/15/2020  8:56 PM

WA state is another.

Another what?  If you mean states that ban online cigar purchases, your info is wrong.  I live in WA and have  been ordering sticks online  for some time now.
Todd

"Those sticks won't smoke themselves..." -- OZZ

sweatsock


https://halfwheel.com/cigar-taxes-by-state/
 
CA is third behind AL and UT and also has the sixth highest sales tax. WA is fourth in sales tax and there cigar tax is about average. A $9.50  cigar in CA has an additional $6.18 in cigar tax and a 8.25% sales tax. Assuming they are combined the total cost would be $17.00 or $7.50 additional in combined taxes.

CW Piperman

#17
Quotetuck0411 - 1/16/2020  2:49 AM

QuoteCW Piperman - 1/15/2020  8:56 PM

WA state is another.

Another what?  If you mean states that ban online cigar purchases, your info is wrong.  I live in WA and have  been ordering sticks online  for some time now.

Here is the information I was referencing:

https://www.atg.wa.gov/ban-internet-and-mail-order-tobacco-sales

"Effective July 28, 2009, RCW 70.155.140 makes it illegal for most tobacco products ordered or purchased by telephone, mail order, or through the Internet, to be shipped directly to consumers in Washington. More information about the law, which was written by the Attorney General's Office and passed during the 2009 Legislative session, can be found here: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.aspx?bill=1249&year=2009 "

Unfortunately, I missed this modification in the SIGNED bill: "Except that for the purposes of section 242 of this act only, "tobacco product" does not include cigars defined in RCW82.26.010 as to which 1000 units weigh more than three pounds".  

Sorry about that. Pipe Tobacco, roll your own, cigarettes ARE forbidden.

It's ridiculous, but the proposed Federal bill is much worse. :angry:
"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" --J.R.R. Tolkein, #Bilbo #LOTR #TFOTR

Humidor: http://www.cigargeeks.com/index.php?action=humidors;area=public;member=CW+Piperman

CW Piperman

Quotesweatsock - 1/16/2020  11:15 AM


https://halfwheel.com/cigar-taxes-by-state/
 
CA is third behind AL and UT and also has the sixth highest sales tax. WA is fourth in sales tax and there cigar tax is about average. A $9.50  cigar in CA has an additional $6.18 in cigar tax and a 8.25% sales tax. Assuming they are combined the total cost would be $17.00 or $7.50 additional in combined taxes.

Our tobacco tax in MI is 32%, but cigar tax is capped at 50 cents. We're very lucky in that regard.
"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" --J.R.R. Tolkein, #Bilbo #LOTR #TFOTR

Humidor: http://www.cigargeeks.com/index.php?action=humidors;area=public;member=CW+Piperman

sweatsock

My optimism is based in the belief that cigars are not the target of tobacco laws. Smokeless tobacco and cigarettes were identified as serious health threats and can't be mailed.
Vaping was considered a safe alternative to smoking until it wasn't. It is also marketed to young people. Legislation needs to be passed to treat vaping the same as cigarettes.
It is interesting that WA wants to stop out of state sales of pipe tobacco but not cigars. From a health perspective they are similar.

I don't know why CA has a particularly high tax on cigars. It would be interesting know the correlation between a states tax on a cigar and their tax on a pack of cigarettes.
A 50 cent per cigar tax does not seriously impact  person's decision to buy a premium cigar but would for a person buying a pack of cheroots instead of a pack of cigarettes.

CW Piperman

#20
I'd really like to find out what cigar and pipe tobacco sellers (amokingpipes.com, famous-smokes, cigars daily, etc) are licensed to sell in what states.

It seems if a shop is licensed in MI, we can order online at this point. How would I find this out? Googled for an extended period with no results. Lots of HOW to get a license, no "These are the companies licensed to sell tobacco in MI".
"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to" --J.R.R. Tolkein, #Bilbo #LOTR #TFOTR

Humidor: http://www.cigargeeks.com/index.php?action=humidors;area=public;member=CW+Piperman


   
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